Discussion Post #2

I do think that Jenne-Jeno was an urbanized site. The population concentration may have been much smaller when compared to that of Egypt, China, and Mesopotamia. In fact, Jenne- Jeno was pretty much on the brim of being considered rural. Possibly the only thing preventing Jenne-Jeno from being considered rural was that it was a significant trade benefactor providing fish and rice for the other civilizations. I don't think it's very appropriate to use urbanization in relationship to population because some of the largest populations can still be considered "not urban".

I do not believe that Jenne-Jeno was a true urbanized civilization. I believe that it would be more like the "towns"of today--smaller and lacking in the big corporation companies and whatnot that you would see today. Jenne-Jeno wasn't nearly as big or as populated as other civilizations. Even the Aztecs had a population of upwards to 200,000, while the Jenne-Jeno only had 50,000 at most. They also did not seem to have been as organized or as diverse as one would expect of a civilization. The population seemed to have consisted of mostly traders and labor workers, rather than innovators. A city can't consist of people who left everyday to go fishing, for example, but Jenne-jeno's artifacts did not show much diversity in their innovations-like jewelry and statues. In conclusion, I do not believe that the jenne-jeno and other West African urbanized areas were complex enough to be considered a true urban civilization

I believe that Jenne-Jeno was indeed a urban civilization. Although its population size was smaller than places like China, Egypt and Mesopotamia, it was still big. According to the US Bureau of the Census, any community with a population of 2,500 people or more is an urban area and thus a population with up to 50,000 people could still be classified as an urban area. Now about whether it is a true urban civilization I have this to say, "Yes, it is." First off, this place is known as "The first known indigenous city in sub-Saharan Africa." (Spodek 113) It started out as a village but later on, developed into a city, just like China, Egypt and Mesopotamia. In addition, just like China, Egypt, and Mesopotamia, its population and city growth grew over time. Also, Jenne-Jeno advanced by trades with other nations. Historians have found iron and stone, suggesting it was from 30 miles away, copper and salt from hundreds of miles away and even gold from 500 miles away. Now how could these people maintain these trades without a government? Simple, they had an organized system of citizen’s rules. They may have not had leaders, but together created rules and structure indicating an urban society, and thus making it a true urban civilization.

On the other hand, maybe Jenne-Jeno was not an urban civilization. First off, they were so different from other urban civilizations like China, Egypt, and Mesopotamia. They had no government, had smaller cities and different city layouts. Yes, they traded with other nations but who is to say that the whole place of Jenne-Jeno traded and it wasn’t just simply a small group of people or a few merchants. The book mentions about how historians found stones and metals from far away lands, but this does not mean they went out and traded for them. For example, if you look at a computer, you can tell that on the bottom it says, “Made in China.” This doesn’t mean we are urban just because we have something from a far away place, we must go and get the computer or export something else in exchange. To have control over trading, I believe a form of government must be in place, and since Jenne-Jeno and other urbanized sites in West Africa did not have them, I believe they are not true urban civilizations. Also, I feel a true urban civilazation must have a strong export just like how China’s was silk, but Jenne-Jeno did not. Unfortunately, “Perhaps the people of Jenn-Jeno traded the fish of the Niger and the rice of the fields for these imports,” (Spodex 115) is not very convincing.

Jessica,

I would have to agree that Jenne-Jeno and other West African urbanized areas were not complex enough to be considered a true urban civilization. To me, a true urban civilization needs to be more than simply a few traders and labor workers. A true urban civilization needs government, many companies and diverse jobs. Here it sounds like the only jobs were fishing fish and gathering water or building small hunts we would call "home." We do not see much art work or jewelry and the same goes for language. Where are the stories? Creative culture? Unlike China, Egypt, and Mesopotamia, Jenne-Jeno and other West African urbanized areas lack this. Since we see no diverse jobs, art, major exports, or culture, I feel Jenne-Jeno and other West African urbanized areas are not true urban civilizations.

I believe that the Jenne-Jeno villages were true urban civilizations, as they all six of the necessary requirements of civilizations. First, they had growth in cities, 400C.E. and 900C.E. Second they had a center of trade, in fact they had people who were professional merchants, trading among the Niger River Valley, and other surrounded villages. Third is specialized workers, the book mentions bronze, and gold worker which requires people who craft as a job, miners, est. which are all specialized workers. Fourth, advanced technology, I believe for their time and size the working of metals was a technology all on its own. Fifth, are complex constitutions. They had a strong religious belief, and had a patriarticle system were the head male had a large hut in the middle of smaller huts were his wives would live. Last is a writing system, as I have not finished reading the entire section I am not one hundred percent sure they had a writing system. Yet I think it was likely they did with such strong religious beleiifs and advancement in metal working I’m sure they had writings. Please correct me if I am wrong on the last part though.

I believe that the Jenne-Jeno villages were true urban civilizations, as they all six of the necessary requirements of civilizations. First, they had growth in cities, 400C.E. and 900C.E. Second they had a center of trade, in fact they had people who were professional merchants, trading among the Niger River Valley, and other surrounded villages. Third is specialized workers, the book mentions bronze, and gold worker which requires people who craft as a job, miners, etc. which are all specialized workers. Fourth, advanced technology, I believe for their time and size the working of metals was a technology all on its own. Fifth, are complex constitutions. They had a strong religious belief, and had a patriarticle system were the head male had a large hut in the middle of smaller huts were his wives would live. Last is a writing system, as I have not finished reading the entire section I am not one hundred percent sure they had a writing system. Yet I think it was likely they did with such strong religious beleiifs and advancement in metal working I’m sure they had writings. Please correct me if I am wrong on the last part though.

Jessica Zhu of Period 4,
I have to strongly disagree with you. Now yes, it would have been LIKE the small “towns” of today, but size doesn’t have to do with a civilization, it’s how it grows. And as the book states, they did grow quite a bit between 400-900C.E. And how were they not diverse? A patriarticle system is diversity at its peak, and among the many smaller villages this could have differed greatly. And you state “Jenne-Jeno's artifacts did not show much diversity in their innovations-like jewelry and statues.” later in the paragraph contradicting yourself. You mention that the population consisted of mainly traders and labors, and that’s EXACTLY what makes a village a civilization, trade AND specialized workers. And why can’t a civilization consist of people who leave every day? As long as they come back at day’s end and provide for the city I think that’s irrelevant.

I personally believe that this was a civilization. Even though their population was not nearly as large as some of the other civilizations, it still had some major things. Number 1, it had an economy. It was said that they traded with other people that were hundreds of miles away. This trade gave them substances they normally wouldn't have. Number 2, they had specialized workers. They had some people fishing and some that became merchants. Not everyone was farming which would lead to economic and social growth. This could also lead to innovations like jewelry and statues. Number 3, they possibly fought themselves to death. It says in a paragraph on page 115 that they might have made themselves extince because they fought so much. They could have been going after land, or after slaves. To me, these three events show signs of a civilization

Woops, computers being weird again. Sorry about the two posts.

I beleive that Jenne- Jeno was not an urbanzied civilation. The city did not have a strong central govenment, which is an absolute need in a productive, and well-managed urbanized site. Although Jake brings up a good point of Jenne-Jeno meeting all of the six civilization "requirements" but in order to be a urbanzied city don't you have to have some type of organized order and controll over citizens. This might be a stretch but imagine America without government. America would still meet all or the requirements for a civilization, but wothout order America would be in utter chaos.

Jacob,

I have to disagree with you about your comment that Jenne-Juno and other urbanized sites in West Africa were true urban civilizations. Like Morgan and Andrew, I agree that even though they had the "six requirements for civilization," they were not true urban civilizations because they did not have a government. Without a government or an equal structure, these cities could by no meaning, be controlled. How do we know that all houses had the male in one large hut and the wives in smaller ones around it?

Also, the part were you said, "They had strong religious beliefs," is not completely true. Yes, they were religious and they buried the dead in houses, but in fact, Jenne-Jeno never really made any temples, tombs, palaces or irrigation and flood-control systems in their cities, like China, Egypt, and Mesopotamia did. Now about the writing, they never invented a language and historians have not found any writings. They may have used a written language, but we have no evidence of it.

Finally, I have to disagree about the specialized workers. The book mentions that yes, they found jewelry, but not much of it and it could have been easily imported to them, just like the how the coppers and golds were. They never did mine for these metals, but instead they traded. It is hard to say that they "made" many things, because only a few artifacts have been found and remember all the materials comes from another place.

Also, one last note to everyone, Jenne-Jeno and other urbanized sites in West Africa can not be true urban civilizations, because the cities themselves never advanced like China, Egypt, and Mesopotamia did. The text book mentions that the stucture for huts layouts are the same from the past as they are today. For a true urban civilization, a city must evolve and advance with technology, like with what China, Egypt, and Mesopotamia did, not just stay the same. Some huts were turned into squares later on, but for the main part, all huts stayed the same and cities never changed appearences.

Jacob,

I guess I should clarify what I meant. Like I was comparing Jenne-Jeno to the modern “town”, well some towns that I know of are bigger than many cities (which would be like the true civilizations of back then.) For instance, Maricopa City is a bit more than half the size of Awhatukee (based on Wikipedia). So yes, it isn’t size that matters as much as the diversity and whatnot. Like aforementioned, a town usually lacks the big companies. So, in Jenne-Jeno: yes-it had trade, yes-it had artisans but from my interpretation of the book, they didn’t have as much trade or as much diversity as I would think a city ought to have had. For example, their trading seemed to have focused on things that they needed: stones, copper, salt—not luxury goods. Archeologist only found one gold earring at the site, which probably meant that they hadn’t advanced that far into the materialistic society that seemed to be found in every other ancient civilization. Also, when I meant laborers, I didn’t mean specialized workers. Rather, I meant that all they did was farm/fished, and the village was inherently where they slept the night for most of the people. Also, very little advancement seemed to have occurred, which probably meant that very few people had time to sit and think about things, rather than performing “hard” labor. However, to create a true urban civilization, like Cheyenne said, things must advance. Also, once again taking the example of what a modern city is like: in Phoenix, there are probably hundreds of companies and inventors working in there, and they live there. Or the city is where everybody gravitates to work there. However, in the case of Jenne-jeno, the civilization did not seem to have developed enough, because based on my interpretation, basically everybody left to go fishing or to work outside of the city in general. In this case, it would be more like Awhatukee—filled with neighborhoods, a few specialized stores/companies, but in the end the majority of people leave to go and work elsewhere during the day.

Yes and no. I think that with certain aspects of Jenne-Jeno, they were quite alike China, Egypt and Mesopotamia. Jenne-Jeno had things like trade routes with other civilizations like other large settlements, and well constructed houses with separations between upper-class people and the lower classes. They also had agriculture, growing rice, millet, and sorghum, and they mostly did subsistence farming (meaning they just grew what they needed). But they also did not have a strong central government, and their small population kind of limited their possibility of becoming a large, flourishing city. And they had very little advancement in the terms of inventions and such because most people were either farming or hunting/gathering, and mostly used the city as a central place for all the local people to gather rather then being sprinkled around the same area, but not being together. So I think that in certain aspects Jenne-Jeno can be considered a city, but at the same time, if looked at it the right way, Jenne-Jeno is NOT a city. So it's all in the way you want to argue it.

I believe that Jenne-Jeno was not an urban civilization. The rquirements for a civilization are they must have have a government of some form and they have to technologically advance over time. Jenne-Jeno does not in fact meet these requirements. Therefore there is no way for it to be an urban civilization. However large a trading area Jenne-Jeno may have been, this does not make up for the fact that they are missing key elements and requirements that would ultimately make it a civilization. Although I cannot deny the fact that they were a major factor and of trade in their region, but I still am not convinced that Jenne-Jeno could possible an urban civilization.

I believe you have a very valid point about this whole topic. I couldn't imagine such a tragedy happening in America, because America depends on its government functioning properly. The fact that we have a very strong governmnt, help us in many ways. Having a strong government is absolute necessary, because in an urbanized civilization, order is needed. without a governemnt, order cannot be reached. Also, a government is needed to help a civilization advance, which is why in turn that America is very advanced in many ways.

shaun,

I completely agree with you on the fact the Jenne Jeno was not an urbanized city like we had studied before. This city would spread over a numerous amount of miles without a strong central government, or even any.
People wold act on their own by cultivating their own crops. If they waanted to trade with another, they could but were not forced, which to me does not represent a strong government or organization process. People today though believe that Jenne- Jeno rose on the basis of trading and expanded into geographical neighboring, interactive settlements, withouth a government. in conclusion, I totally agree that Jenne jeno was not a civilizatoin like we would think of it today.

Sorry if i pasted my opinion twice. This post thing makes me a little confused on the submition step.

I think that the Jenne-Jeno civilization was an urbainized site. Even though they might not have been urbainized as other places, it seems like they civilization was very well built. They had about 50,000 people living in the area, they traded with other civilizations,agriculture, religion, and art.

Kaityln,
I would have to agree with you. Yes, maybe they did have a smaller populaiton than Egypt, China, and Mesopotamia, but they had other things to be considered urbanized. For example as I said before, they had trade, thier own agricultre, and their own way of living. Because of that I think that they are considered to have been urbanized.

I do not believe that the city of Jenne-Jeno was an urbanized civilization. Like others before me have mentioned, the major factor in determining a genuine urban civilization is the government. However in Jenne-Jeno's case, it would actually be the lack of government. Cities thrive on the continuity and structure of an excellent government, and that is what helps a town grow and prosper even more. Now one could easily say that growth could still occur without having a higher power to look upon, and although this may be true, sooner or later, plans will go awry and chaos will take place. Citizens need a government system in order to live happy and peaceful lives, which is exactly what Jenne-Jeno lacked.

The population concentrations that developed in Jenne-Jeno and other urbanized sites in West Africa were not true urban civilizations. Jenne Jeno was more of a bunch of neighboring villages with than a civilization. Jenne-Jeno was not a complete civilization, but more of a primary urbanization. People would interact with each other, however, there were no strong centralized authority or government that emerged, therefore it was not a true civilization.

Morgan,
After reading your response to the prompt, I was mighty impressed! Your thoughts regarding the necessity of a government in any city was what really stood out to me, because I completely agree. You also helped support your decision with very valid facts and you helped put things into perspective when you gave the excellent example with America. I truly agree with everything that you mentioned about Jenne-Jeno not being an urbanized civilization.

As far as Jenne-Jeno being an urban civlilizations, there are many factors you could argue with that it is an urban civilization such as Jacob stated. However, they were missing a key factor that holds a civilation together, and I have to completely agree with Morgan D. Without a centralized government, there is no control on what the citizens do which as Morgan said, would lead to chaos. Overall I would have to say I do not believe that Jenne-Jeno was an urban civilization and even if it was, it was not an ideal one since they had no control over power and they did not grow too far.

I think Jenne-Jeno was a true urban civilization like China, Egypt, and Mesopotamia because people still populated that area and so they were living there. Just because it wasn't as big as the other places like Egypt, doesn't mean that it wasn't a civilization.

Lori,
I definitely agree with you that Jenne-Jeno was urbanized because they did trade and have agriculture just like any other civilization. Plus, as you said, many people occupied the area.

I do believe that Jenne-Jeno was an urbanized civilization. They were involved with trade, had religion and art. These are all aspects of a civilization. Even though they didn't have a government, they were still able to keep their settlement in good condition for awhile. If they were doing fine without a government, why bother having one? However i do agree that a government does help to keep cities from chaos, but that doesn't mean a city isn't a civilization without it.

Eric,
You bring up a good point of Jenne-Jeno being more a primary urbanization. I disagree that it was not a civilization, but i see why you would think that. People interacting with each other could be taken either way.

I strongly believe Jenne-Jeno was a true urbanized civilization. Mainly because it meets all the requirements that are needed to be met for a city to be called a city. Growth, trade, specialized workers, advanced technology, and complex institution. Jenne-Jeno meets all of these requirements, so therefor it must be an urbanized civilization. Although some of you make a good point about the need for a centralized government, it wasn't necesarry for their urbanization. Anyways, it wasn't as if they had no order or control. THey were able to do without.

I believe Jenne-Jeno was a true center of urbanization because it had almost all the same features as other civilizations. Jenne-Jeno was a center of trade in the Niger River and had iron tools. The city was surrounded by a wall and had many small satellite villages surrounding it and the city had farms and agriculture. Jenne-Jeno was a center or religion but not as major as other civilization. Jenne-Jeno might have lacked a major government but that does not mean they did not make up their own laws and a form of government like a ruler of the city. The city might not have been as big as some other civilizations but the fact that it was so much bigger then surrounding villages and was a center of trade should mean that it was the biggest center of urbanization.

Andrew I understand that a government was important but just because it had no main power of government does not mean that Jenne-Jeno didn’t have their own set of laws and boundaries that there wasn’t a specific man who had more power than the rest of the people and this man probably controlled some of the rest of the city. I know that is a big what if but what if’s are the things that need to be answered to make a decision

A statement like this is borderline, and could go either ways. But i feel as if the best answer is that yes, Jenne-Jeno and other West-African sites should be considered true urban civilizations. In the beginning years, no, they did not have much of a population, but as the years passed, they could have had up to 50,000 people, which could be considered well above the minimal amount of citizens for a true urban civilization. Not only this, but they also had everyday trade among them for food, jewelry, and crafts just like Egypt and Mesopotamia. No, they did not build huge monumental sculptures and pyramids for religion, but they did have signs of ancestor worship. Just because these cities relied more on relative equality and cooperation of townsmen instead of fighting and competition for power does not mean that they should be considered as untrue urban civilizations.

Hi!

I believe that Jenne Jeno was a civilization. In Jenne Jeno, there was domestication of plants and animals, iron works, and a type of government. According to McIntosh, Jenne Jeno was an urbanized civilization just not in the normal sense. When we compare Jenne Jeno to the PERSIA chart we can see that it was a civilization.
-Political: Jenne Jeno did not have a central government or states, but they did have many small neighboring villages within one wall acting as a large populated city like area hence an organized group of villages. Maybe not a government is generic terms but organized none the less.
-Economic: Throughout Jenne Jeno there are signs of trade with other civilizations all over Africa. For example, one gold earring was discovered in Jenne Jeno when the nearest gold mine was over 500 miles away, meaning that there had to be contact and trade with other civilizations.
-Religious: The bronze kneeling figure symbolizes a worship of ancestors. The statuettes had impacts on sacrifices and prayers to ancestors.
-Social: Jenne Jeno may have had no social hierarchy, but just like the political aspect, there was most definitely an organized system within Jenne Jeno. Otherwise how would it have survived?
-Intelligence: The people of Jenne Jeno continue to show off their intelligence simply in the fact that they had began to create Iron tools in order to herd, farm, and fish.
-Art: The people of Jenne Jeno did have a sense of Art seeing as they did have jewelery and ornaments made of copper and semi-precious stones.
Jenne Jeno has found its way into all six points of PERSIA making it a civilization in my book.

-Comments welcome, opinions appreciated, criticism desired, please feel free to add on or argue against me. Thanks!

Nate

In my opinion I believe that Jenne-Jeno was not an urbanized site. Although it was associated with trade, religion, art, and agriculture similar to the other sites we have recently studied, they lack in a proper government. Citizens in Jenne-Jeno were interdependent within different groups. With a strong central government Jenne-Joeo could have had the chance to flourish and evolve into a larger city. But because there was no organized government they remained undersized. Even with the absence of government, they managed to be somewhat successful but that doesn’t technically mean they were an authentic urbanized site.

Although I do understand that a centralized government should be considered a key point in having a true civilization, I believe Jenne-Jeno was a true civilization without one. All of the traits of a civilization were there. It was a center for trade, it had growing settlements, architectural innovation, and it had religion and art incorporated into its culture. I believe the trait out of the ones I mentioned that confirms Jenne-Jeno as a true urban civilization was its growth. When a population concentration is able to settle and grow while incorporating factors of civilizations such as trading, art, and religion, government, that is what makes it a civilization. While order is required for a civilization to prosper, that does not necessarily mean a structured government is necessary. Jenne-Jeno was able to do just fine without being led under a government, as the citizens were able to be interdependent on one another to eliminate the need for government. In a way, they likely acted as their own government. I believe that as long as there is peace and order in a civilization, a government is not needed, and that was the situation with Jenne-Jeno.

In Jenne-Jeno, there was no government or social class structure, but it was definitely in a progression towards being a city. I don't necessarily believe, however, that it was a urban civilization as much as China and Egypt. Their houses were mostly huts, and later some rectangular houses were built, which shows not much advancement in architecture. There was a lack of government, therefore showing the absence of order in this society. To conclude, this was a society, but not as advanced and urbanized as other ones we have talked about.

Nick Coronado,
Sure, Jenne-Jeno had a strong numbered population, but that doesn't necessarily mean it was a true urban civilization. They had no government and no base religion like all the other societies relied on. The religion and government served as a form of order in the other societies, which this society did not seem to obtain. Ancestor worship was common in many places and doesn't make a society an urban society. Yes, they traded food and such, but it wasn't as elite or elaborate as Egypt or China. I liked your response but I believe you didn't fully look at both sides of the topic.

I strongly disagree. I believe that a central government is not needed to facilitate an urban civilization. Please explain to me the walls that were built around Jenne Jeno. Can you honestly tell me that one man built that all by himself? No. In order for such a feat to be accomplished it would take and organized system. Maybe not a government with a social heirachy but an organized system including all of Jenne Jeno. In comparison, we can take a look at Egypt who did have a strong central government. What can we compare between the two you ask? The walls of Jenne Jeno and the Piramids in Egypt.
How else could such a tremendous task be completed? By an oranized system.
We can also look at the US government in a sense. How does our democratic system work? By taking the input of all of America, we determine our own leaders. A citizen governed society. Just like Jenne Jeno, who did not have a central leader but had to take the input of the entire society in order to get results. That is my opinion on the topic. Feel free to argue. Thanks!
Nate

Nate,

You know what, in the comment I left earlier, i was trying my best to prove that Jenne Jeno was not an urbanized city, but reading through your list here, you got me completely changing opinions. Great job for that by the way. I used to think that if a city did not have an organized central government, it was impossible to see them as an urbanized city. The "political" section in your comment really got me thinking. I did not realize that Jenne-Jeno did have many small neighboring villages within one wall acting as a large populated city like area. From this, I realized that Jenne Jeno could depend a little on its neighboring villages. They could get a simple sense of organization that they could then transfer over to their village, or not. I know understand that that Jenne- Jeno could of traded with its surround neighbors, helping them in their economy. In summary, Jenne- Jeno maybe thought having its own government was too complicated, so they took positive laws or ideas from other villages.
Great analysis on this topic Nate. You really got me thinking now.

In my opinion, Jenne-Jeno was not a true urban civilization. It did not have a government, which rules out the political in PERSIA. It had trade (economic), which was the only thing really keeping the city together. There was no specific religion, except for ancestor worship. There was no caste system. There was no writing. There was no specific artwork. It did not have a large populace. Sure, there are enough pieces of evidence that could suggest that Jenne-Jeno was an urban civilization, but there is not enough to support it.

I completely agree with you Jamie. If Jenne-Jeno had survived longer, it could have become an urban civilization. The other civilizations such as Egypt and China were much more advanced than Jenne-Jeno. They had complex architecture, (pyramids and extravagant buildings) as opposed to simple huts. They had complex governments and social hierarchy. They had forms of writing and art. Jenne-Jeno was just a complex trade society, in the beginning stages of becoming an urban civilization.

In some ways, Jenne-Jeno were similar to the civilizations of China, Mesopotamia, and Egypt. Although Jenne-Jeno was different out of all the river civilizations, it would be considered an urban civilization. This civilization has many of the "requirements" for an urban civilization. Jenne-Jeno began as a village settlement, and quickly grew to a city which could hold thousands of people. Across the Saharan desert were many of the trading routes to certain trade centers. They caught fish along the river, herded animals, and was active in agriculture. However, there is no evidence of any sort of government, which is central to a civilization. There is evidence of organization, from the building of settlements and walls, which leads me to believe that Jenne-Jeno may have had something like a government. Therefore, I still believe Jenne-Jeno was an urban civilization.

Julianne,
Yes I see your point, but just because they did not have complex arcitecture does not mean that they were not unrbanized. I think that maybe they just weren't as concerned about architecture as other civilizations were. As Nate has said, a civilization shouldn't have to have a centralized government to be urbanized. They had their own cultures and I think that that makes Jenne-Jeno an urbanized site.

For this question, asking if the population concentration that developed in Jenne-Jeno were true urban civilizations, I would say yes. Jenne-jeno was the first indigenous city in sub-Sahara Africa, they began as a small group around mud huts, they were already using iron implements, and the village grew to urban size later in time. According to the MacIntoshes, Jenne-jeno must have engaged in trade because even in 250 B.C.E. its habitants were using iron and stone that had to be brought from long distances. This example just shows that the city must of have some "knowledge" of trading and group settlements, and they needed a some type of urbanization and control to be able to do so. Another example is the they lived in neighboring clusters that were depending on each other for many things, rather than a single urban center with one core and smaller areas around it. Also another example, given by the McIntoshes also, shows the population of Jenne-jeno may have cooperated with each other, and there was no sign of competition, dominance, nor coercion. So out of all my examples what it basically says is that urbanization in Jenne-jeno may have developed urbanization sites, not fully the same as those in Mesopotamia, China, nor Egypt, through the inter-relationship of adjacent smaller settlements without the need for hierarchy, centralization, government structure, and written language. You don't actually need to fight, conquer, nor build complex buildings to be actually a urbanization site. So at the end, in my opinion, Jenne-jeno was indeed, a different type of urbanization, but still a urbanization, of those in Mesopotamia, Egypt, China, or other civilizations, because of the reasonable reasons stated above and many other more that you could find.

I respect your answer, and your examples are very interesting. But I completely disagree with you. A urbanization does not need to have a centralized government, nor a religion, nor a type or writing. And it does not have to comply with PERSIA. There are many infinite reasons why, but I'm just going to state the general ones. First of all, urbanization is still possible without religion, nor government, you could still have urbanization because people don't need government, nor religion at one point, to develop into bigger and higher communities and groups. Basically what I'm saying is that cities may develop through the inter-relationship of adjacent smaller settlements without the need of hierarchy, centralization, government structure, and writing language. So this are the basic reasons why I disagree with your facts and examples. Your examples are obvious reasons why Jenne-jeno may not be an urbanization, but you have to think deeper and past that to see what is the actual answer, in my opinion. But of course the interpretation depends in part on how far the definition of a city and its functions may be.

I believe that the settlements of West Africa were true urban civilizations. Jenne-Jeno is just one of the examples of a West African civilization, and the question asks about all of the urbanized settlements.

When looking at West Africa, we can see that they certainly had some type of centralized government, because the building of walls and zimbabwes would have taken some form of authority to accomplish. In addition, the ability of the West Africans to keep a stable civilization for so long implies that they weren't just individual people working for themselves.

As for the rest of the requirements for a civilization, the West African sites of urbanization meet them. As Tad said, growth, trade, specialized workers, advanced technology, and complex institutions are present in the early West African societies. When looking at growth, we know that Jenne-Jeno started from a group of round mud huts, to some square houses. Eventually, people from neighboring civilizations hopped over to Jenne-Jeno, as it became a central area to the Niger River Valley. Specialized Workers and Advanced technology were absolutely present. We see that the West Africans were adept at iron-smelting, and in conjunction with that, there were agricultural workers, and other workers who built walls. A complex institution was most certainly defined in this society, and that can be seen by the building of architecture.

Ultimately, these true civilizations have no reason to be detracted from.

Jenne-Jeno, in my opinion is a true urbanized civilization. Despite Jenne-Jeno's limited complexity to urban civilizations of China, Egypt, and Mesopotamia, it still has the major characteristics of an urbanized site. For one, Jenne-has the population density substantial for an urban settlement. Next, even though Jenne-Jeno had no strong centralized government, they still resembled the balance of one. Excavation sites show that there was a large central hut surrounded by surrounding huts. I consider this to be the authority aspect of an urban civilization. Lastly, there are signs of devolepments in trade which is a central aspect in an urban civilization.

Morgan,
Although I believe that Jenne-Jeno was an urbanized site, I do have to agree with what you said about having a government. Its true because every area should have a government to keep everything in order. You make a very good point but I do have to say that it still could have been an urbanized site because of the population and things like agriculture that appeared in Jenne-Jeno.

I believe that Jenne-Jeno is a unique example of an urbanized civilization. One prime indicator of this is the fact that they had a civilization built around a religion. Like any other urbanized civilization, Jenne-Jeno had a strong trade system. However Jenne-Jeno lacked the strong centralized government common to most other urbanzied civilzations. Even with the centralized government, they remained organized with the population of a large urbanized civilization. Just because there was no actual central government, does not mean that there was no form of authority whatsoever.

Alex,
I agree with your thoughts about Jenne-Jeno's organization comparing to a style of government. Buildings of settlements, walls, and arrangements of huts probably required some sort of authority. In Egypt, there was a strong centralized government that allowed building projects to occur.Comparatively, Jenne-Jeno had a lower-scale of building, but a central leader or government was probably required to have any architectual developements. Therefore, I believe Jenne-Jeno can be deduced as an urban civilization because the evidence of organized building structures.

I believe that Jenne-Jeno was a true urbanized civilization because they had many qualities of a major civilization. First, they must of had an organized government because they built many things including zimbabwes that surrounded the cities. Next is that they had major trade flowing in and out of the city which means they had some sort of economy. Finally, is that they continued to grow a stable city along with using all sorts of technology which again qualifies them as a civilization. Even though they had a lower population than other civilizations, I believe they had more than enough qualifications to be a "true" civilization.

Neema,
I agree with you on just about eveything you said. Religion is a key factor in any growing civilization. Though some religions were a little outragous in these civilizations it is important to have one to start. Another thing I agree with is that trade is probably what got them to play a big role in civilizations. They were a huge center of trade for incoming traders. Finally is that they did have some sort of ruling because most of the zimbabwes were built around royalty that had some sort of say in the city. Therefore, I believe it is a civilization because of these ideas.

I do not believe Jenne-Jeno was a civilization. They had no real, defined, central government; they also did not have anybody like a king or a hierarchy to rule this so-called 'civilization'. Trade, however was a major component of Jenne-Jeno, in fact, it was very significant not only to them but to all the other countries and civilizations that they trade with. Jenne-Jeno just does seem like an urban civilization to me.

Nate,
I have to disagree with you on this one. Jenne-Jeno could not exactly have been a "true urban civilization" because it had no one to rule over the government it didn't have. You make a good point, however, with PERSIA, and how it factors in the 'requirements' to be a true civilization. I must admit that was very clever, and you put it into such a long entry, as well! Again, they had no central, organized government or a king to rule what could have been.

I believe the Jenne-Jeno was a true urbanized civilization, even though they didn’t have a strong centralized government. The Jenne-Jeno had a large civilization with a form of religion and trade. Now, I do not think that the size of a group of people alone is enough to call it a civilization, but I think the fact that they had religious practices that were fairly well accepted throughout the entire civilization and that they traded with other civilization is. A religious aspect that was practiced basically throughout all of the Jenne-Jeno civilization and trade shows that they did have some form of organization within them. Although they did not necessarily have one centralized government that unified them, they obviously were not fighting with each other all of the time with all of the trade and similarities throughout the civilization, and for people not to fight all of the time they do need some sort of rules and organization. Also, the main reason people think that they didn’t have a strong central government is because they didn’t build any large monuments, but other civilizations only really built huge monuments in worship to their gods. Don’t you think it is possible that the way they just worshiped their gods in a different way, a way where they didn’t think it was necessary to build humongous monuments?

I believe the Jenne-Jeno was a true urbanized civilization, even though they didn’t have a strong centralized government. The Jenne-Jeno had a large civilization with a form of religion and trade. Now, I do not think that the size of a group of people alone is enough to call it a civilization, but I think the fact that they had religious practices that were fairly well accepted throughout the entire civilization and that they traded with other civilization is. A religious aspect that was practiced basically throughout all of the Jenne-Jeno civilization and trade shows that they did have some form of organization within them. Although they did not necessarily have one centralized government that unified them, they obviously were not fighting with each other all of the time with all of the trade and similarities throughout the civilization, and for people not to fight all of the time they do need some sort of rules and organization. Also, the main reason people think that they didn’t have a strong central government is because they didn’t build any large monuments, but other civilizations only really built huge monuments in worship to their gods. Don’t you think it is possible that the way they just worshiped their gods in a different way, a way where they didn’t think it was necessary to build humongous monuments?

I believe the Jenne-Jeno was a true urbanized civilization, even though they didn’t have a strong centralized government. The Jenne-Jeno had a large civilization with a form of religion and trade. Now, I do not think that the size of a group of people alone is enough to call it a civilization, but I think the fact that they had religious practices that were fairly well accepted throughout the entire civilization and that they traded with other civilization is. A religious aspect that was practiced basically throughout all of the Jenne-Jeno civilization and trade shows that they did have some form of organization within them. Although they did not necessarily have one centralized government that unified them, they obviously were not fighting with each other all of the time with all of the trade and similarities throughout the civilization, and for people not to fight all of the time they do need some sort of rules and organization. Also, the main reason people think that they didn’t have a strong central government is because they didn’t build any large monuments, but other civilizations only really built huge monuments in worship to their gods. Don’t you think it is possible that the way they just worshiped their gods in a different way, a way where they didn’t think it was necessary to build humongous monuments?

Eric,
I disagree with you a city can not run without a central government. The world needs they may be able to get around, but the city would not be successful. There would be fighting and many other problems without a central government. Although Jenne-Jeno had a good trading system that doesn't necessarily make it an urbanized city.

Everyone has been bringing up valid points yet I must agree with those saying that Jenne-Jeno is not a proper urban civilization. Jenne-Jeno did in fact meet all the criteria for a proper urban civilization, yet with no government to keep each civilization trait in line, everything is useless. Although some may want to argue that Jenne-Jeno is a true urban civilization, you must look at the population. At the most, Jenne-Jeno was home to 50,000 people. That alone in opinion does not make it a civilization. The population of greater Phoenix and Scottsdale is 4,000,000 people as of 2009. We do not have a East Valley Civilization or anything along those lines. With a drastically larger population than any of the West African developments, I just cannot see why Jenne-Jeno would be considered an urban civilization.

Shaun,
I'm sorry but I have to completely disagree with you. Yes, Jenne Jeno didn't have a centralized government. But this doesn't mean there wasn't order and control. The people of this civilization worked together peacefully and created a true urbanized civilization without strong governmental control. Look at the buildings of the area for example. The walls surrounding the civilization were wonderfully made. Don't try to tell me that there wasn't good collaboration and teamwork in its construction. Overall, the lack of a strong government is just unnecessary in this peaceful urbanized civilization.

-Tad

The urbanized sites listed in the prompt should be considered true urban civilizations. Most people here are arguing that they had no centralized government, this however is not one of the traits of a civilization, politics is. The sites all had a form of government politics, anarchy, free from the hierarchies of centralized government. If I'm correct, this does count as a political system. Civilization is being limited to one main category that all the MAJOR civilizations are a part of. If these were not real civilizations, the author of the AP book wouldn't even bother including them in this section.

Sam,
After reading your piece, I have almost completely changed my opinion on the matter itself. Before going deeper into the subject, I just believed that without one certain trait, you could not have an urbanized civilization entirely. Although this may still be true, I would still ahve to agree with you contrast opinions. I never realized that politics is what rules a city, not government. You have really opened my eyes toward the subject matter and I appreciate your differing opinion!

I do not believe that Jenne-Jeno was like any other urbanized site because it did not have the type of strategies that the other three civilized urbanizations. One of the down falls that Jenne-Jeno encountered was that they did not have a strong government to keep situations in a better order. A city with poor leadership that cannot bud in when things go wrong will most likely suffer and become extremely weak. Another reason I feel this way is because a real urban civilization should become stronger and more technology based over periods of time. They on the other hand did not advance in any way shape or form. Jenne-Jeno did not meet these requirements that in my opinion make an urbanized site.

I don't think that Jenne-Jeno was an urbanized civilization like China, Egypt, and Mesopotamia. I think the most important factor to urbanization is government and Jenne-Jeno had no form of government. How can a civilization progress without a system of leaders to keep order? There might be peace with a few people living in huts, but peace doesn't make a civilization, in my opinion.

Jennifer,
Your statement makes sense. After all, Jenne-Jeno wasn't nearly as advanced nor did it advance like any of the other urban civilizations. However, just because the civilization didn't advance technologically, doesn't mean that they weren't an urban civilization. If Jenne-Jeno was around for as long as evidence says it was, there is no way it had poor leadership. Sure, they weren't the most powerful civilization, but they still managed to build city walls and a community. Over time, the Jenne-Jeno even spread to form several sattelites. Their civilization wasn't standing still.

I do not think Jenne-Jeno is an urbanized civilization. If anything its like a small town with nothing in the area. They weren't civilized, they had no order or government. They had no religion, they did not work as much as they did in eypt,china, and mesopatamia. Urbanized civilizations work to together to find ways to better themselves. I just don't think they are urbanized like Eypt or china

Personally, i would argue for Jenne-Jeno to be classified as a true urban civilization. Unlike China, Egypt, and Mesopotamia, this civilization had no centralized state; however, the settlement still organized trade, buildings, and their own way of life. Without any signs of government or higher ruling, the people of this population are assumed to be seen as equals from all peers. The community of Jenne-Jeno worked cohesively and as one, which in my opinion is more urbanized because the people learned to work together. The community still invented their own language, iron tools, and settled agriculture as they transitioned into the urban world. The only difference from their other settlements around the world is they preferring working together, rather than being ruled which is a harder task to obtain.

PJ
While i agree that the Jenne-Jeno's did not have a government or religion, you have contradicted yourself. You stated "Urbanized civilizations work together", however, that is exactly what this civilization did. They created a small town, yes, without having to appoint a leader. Everyone was equal in power, no one became power hungry, order was established. You make valid points, yet you need to establish your point of view more clearly.

Libby,
I agree with your points that back up Jenne-Jeno. Although there was technically no centralized state, the civilization still had a good form of government. The community domesticated animals and plants,and showed that they could organize themselves to do many jobs, such as architecture.

The site of Jenne-Jenno was indeed an urbanized civilization, meeting the 6 traits of an urbanized civilization. Although important, a strong centralized government is not the deciding factor of a civilization, especially if they function perfectly without one. True, Jenne-Jenno was not on-par with others like Egypt and Sumer, but they can still be recognized as a true urban civilization.

that anonymous was me ^^^^

Jennifer,
I completely understand what your saying and I cannot agree more. A civilization without a government would be a city on fire, however, Jenne-Jeno was not a city that was out of control, but instead, it was an urban site with villages involved in trade. I also agree on your statement on how it did not evolve in any form.

Morgan,
You bring up a very interesting point when you talk about the “requirements” to be an urbanized site. I totally agree how if the site has the all the “requirements” it still technically is not urbanized if there is not an organized government. Also I enjoyed reading your example inferring what would happen if Americans were without a government. I give you a thumbs up for your response!

I believe Jenne-Jeno was an urban civilization. It may not be as impressive or noteworthy as egypt or mesopotamia, but it had all the characteristics of a true civilization. There was trade and agriculture. There may not have been any strong centralized government, but it isn't apparent that they really needed it. If they had trade, they must have been organized and cooperative and therefore the lack of centralized government probably wasn't an issue. If people were living and working together as a large group in this way, I believe it's safe to say they were an urban civilization.

I do believe that Jenne-Jeno should be considered a true urbanized civilization. Although there was no centralized government, there were other things that made them a true urbanized civilization. For example, there had to be some special workers because we know buildings were built and goods were traded. The community worked together and got things done. As far as I am concerned, Jenne-Jeno is indeed a true urbanized civilization.

Personally, my qualifications for an "urbanized civilization" are different from those that our text book clarifies. When I think of a city, like China and Egypt's strong government, with specialized workers and rural areas within. However, Jenne Jeno had no strong central government, thus clasifying it as nothing to be related with a true city. In relation with the China and Egypt ciliizations, Jenne Jeno doesn't compare in terms of qualifications. China and Egypt both I would consider cities, for both meet the standards of a stong centralized government, a good source of trading, and urbanized settlements within each.

I definitly think that Jenne-Jeno was an urban civilization. Although it was small in population, it had alot of trading which means an economy. They had jobs, technology, and religous beliefs. I feel like if you can easily fill out a PERSIA worksheet on Jenne-Jeno, which you probably could, thats enough reason for me to believe that it was indeed an urban civilization.

I do believe that jenne-jeno was a an urbanized city. I think that it in fact is an urbanized city because they did have all their irragation, economy, politics, etc. They had all their own established rules and laws. Jenne-jeno also had a great system of trade and a stong government.

No they weren't true urbanized cities because they had a very smal population. They also lacked a proper form of government which is one of the fundamental parts of a city. In colclusion I don't think Jenne-Jeno was a true urbanized city.

I think that if we are comparing the Jenne-Jeno civilization to some of the river civilizations like Egypt and China, we wouldnt be able to put jenne jeno an urban civilization. But i dont think that that nescasarily means that it wasnt an urban civilization. I really dont think that we should even be comparing the two. I feel that the Egypt and China civilizations qualify so well that we only think of civilizations to be exactly like them.

It wasn't a true urbanized city because they had a very low population. They also lacked a proper government which is a funamental part of a city. Therefore they are not a true urbanized city like Egypt.

Bobby, I disagree. Without a proper government the city will fall apart. There would also be many problems. So therefore a government SHOULD be a deciding factor.

Bobby, I disagree. Without a proper government the city will fall apart. There would also be many problems. So therefore a government SHOULD be a deciding factor.sorry I forgot my name.

Andrew,
Just because Jenne-Jeno lacked the strong centralized government like that of other urbanized civilizations, doesn't mean that it wasn't one. In my opinion, it is the most basic type of urbanized civilization. It had some sort of order to keep people unified, religion, and a lot of trade.

John,

I agree with your opinions, but not fully; like many people said, including myself, that you do not need government to be an urbanization. You said that it would fit under PERSIA, I believe, that you do not need PERSIA to call something an urbanization. It can be an urbanization without the need to fall under PERSIA nor to have government nor religion.

I think Jenne-Jeno was an ubanized civilization. Yes it was not as great of the likes of Mesopotamia or Egypt, however they weren't a small village of five people. they had a structure that involved rules and order. They had scatterd settlements and many basic structures were built just like other civilizations.

I think Jenne-Jeno was an urbanized civilization. Yes it was not as great of the liks of Mesoptamia or Egypt, however they weren't a small vvillage that consisted of five people. They had a structure that involved rules and order. They had scattered settlements and many basic structures were built just like other civilizations.

I think that Jenne-Jeno was a true urbanized civilization, despite their size. They had agriculture, trade, and art. Even though they were a mere 100 acres at their biggest, they still had similar traits to bigger cities like Jerusalem and Babylon. They knew how to make iron and they were a vital station for trade in Africa. It is estimated that 27,000 people could have lived in Jenne-Jeno also, meaning that it wasn't a small village in the middle of nowhere, it had to support a hefty population and trade with other civilizations as well.

Morgan, you have me second-guessing myself now. Now that I think about it, I agree with you that Jenne-Jeno was not a true urbanized city, that would be impossible without a central government. If proof had been found leading to the assumption of a central government in Jenne-Jeno it would be a different story, but with the known facts I think you are correct.

Marlo,
Although I agree with what you are saying about lack of government factoring into Jenne-Jeno not being truly urbanized, I don't think population really matters in this situation. Jenne-Jeno had a population of over 10,000 which, compared to other truly urbanized cities, is quite small, I believe the Chyene said something about a civilization only has to have 2,500 people to be considered urban. So, although what you're saying about government is correct, population, at least in this case, has nothing to do with "true urbanization".

P.S. Sorry that my previous comment posted twice

Neema,
I agree with your ideas. Also i think they too had distict characteristics that separated Jenne-Jeno from a village into a civilization. I also agree they did not have a strong centralized government however they had some kind of authority

Hey Tad,

I must agree with everything you just explained. Your analysis is great but i would like to talk in furthur details about why they are an urbanized city. They did meet a major requirement, and that is trading. It is not all though. Knowing that the Jenne Jeno had many surrounding organized villages, they could depend on them and this could help in economy. From their neighbors opinions, they could take laws that suited them, and laws that they disliked they could just put aside. In summary, although you were really brief about your opinion, I completely agree with you.

By definition, Jenne-Jeno is not an urbanized civilization. In order for an area to be considered a civilization, it must have 5 things: Growth of cities, specialized workers, writing, advanced technology, and complexed institution. While their population did grow, they lacked all the others. They did not have any writing, other than from a archaeological standpoint, they lacked advanced technology, they didn't really have a government, and there was nothing about specialized workers. So in the end, the only thing they had going for them is their population, so by definition, they were not an urbanized civilization.

Exactly, they lacked many qualities that a true civilization needs. They did not have writing, advanced technologies, nor a government. It was basically like a bunch of people just living together, and not accomplishing anything. They were definitely not a true urban civilization.